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Winsford 'Joker' Devine Speaks
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TriniSoca.com Reporters
Recorded: on July 19, 2007
Posted: September 12, 2007
MR. DOUGLAS: That was a focal gathering point for artistes.
WINSFORD: There are certain areas in town which I only got to know about after. You have like Nelson and Basilon Streets. Out of Basilon Street came Renegades Steelband and other small Steelbands. They had Syncopaters right on the hill. All Stars came from right there initially. Around that area seem to be a cultural point. Then you have what they call behind the bridge. City Symphony, Syncopators and all those bands used to be from around there. All the people used to end up liming on Nelson Street. There were two famous clubs around that area. One was Spike Club on Nelson Street and another one was on upper Nelson Street. There was another club on Charlotte Street near a bakery that was there at the time called Jardine's Bakery. All of that used to be right around that area. All the fellas from Desperadoes used to lime right on Nelson Street. They used to come down from the hill and lime on Nelson Street and Prince Street.
MR. DOUGLAS: So that was a kind of meeting point for people from the hill as well as people from Eastern Port of Spain?
WINSFORD: All of them used to lime around that area. Tokyo fellas used to come and lime there on a Friday evening and eat chicken from by Honey Comb and so on. Honey Comb was right on the corner and they were a popular club. Calypsonians used to lime there.
MR. DOUGLAS: In those early days, were the Calypsonians employed to perform live at these clubs or was it a place where they just hang out?
WINSFORD: Now these are things that I heard. 'Sparrow' , 'Melody' and those fellas used to lime up by Spike. 'Blakie' and all of them used to be drinking around those places. I don't know if you knew about town in those days. But every corner had a famous little rum place where everybody used to go to hang out and drink. Those things kind of died out now. I do not think they have any still existing.
TYEHIMBA: How has the Calypso arena changed from back in the early days where you would have experienced it to now?
WINSFORD: The Calypsos that we hear now are not like the real Calypsos we used to hear long ago. When I listen to 'Sparrow' and 'Melody' sing songs like "Belmont Jackass" and "Ten to One is Murder", those are the songs that used to be sung and played in the clubs. Most of them were a kind of badjohn something. That was when 'Sparrow' and 'Melody' were here.
'Sparrow' brought back Kitchener here. The first place Kitchener sang in when he came here was in the Young Brigade Tent with 'Sparrow'. Then somebody encouraged Kitchener to open his own tent. He felt he wasn't getting enough stardom there. But these things happen. He left and opened his tent and it was there Calypso started to rise in a sense. There was rivalry between 'Kitchener' and 'Sparrow' and that caused the art form to go. That is how I know it.
'Maestro' and 'Francine' used to be in Kitchener's Tent. During that time, I was a little fellow and all I was doing was writing little Calypsos. I used to write for Francine and them. They took the song and didn't want to pay me. They took a long time before they paid me. They paid me fifty dollars here and five dollars there and so on. I didn't mind because I used to hang out with them when I had time from the band.
I was deeply involved with the Steelband but even that little band and all kind of crash these days. They are not as popular as they were before. The band had grown and it got big. A lot of musicians passed through that band. Oba was in the band and he used to play a double tenor. He left the band and went with Sound Revolution and became a professional musician. He can play nearly anything. A few other fellas like Ellisworth and so on passed through the band. I haven't seen them for the longest while. I do not think Ellisworth is living here anymore.
MR. DOUGLAS: He is in Toronto. He used to do a lot of Calypso and cultural shows up there.
WINSFORD: The fellas and them used to cry him down because they say he is a scamp. I heard 'Chalkie' and them say they went to sing for him and he didn't want to pay them.
MR. DOUGLAS: He still has that reputation, even in Toronto too, and he still organizers all the big shows.
WINSFORD: He was the vocalist in a band that was very popular here. I think it was Third World Reflection or something like that. All those fellas were from around there. Williams brother, the boy who threw himself out from a hotel room in New York, they used to play in Casanova. Those bands led to other bands. Fire Flight and all those other bands. I know that is true because I used to live that history with those fellas and them.
MR. DOUGLAS: Most of your activities were within an environment with musical people.
WINSFORD: In those days nothing used to be going on in the country. It was pure country. When I came to town I started to live a different life. Because I could have written a few Calypsos the fellas had a little respect for me. I was moving in a different circle. I went to parties with all those fellas and I got to know them. Writing for people like 'Sparrow' and 'Francine' I became high profile so I started to lime with the fellas and them like Ellisworth and so on. Anywhere they saw me they would call out to me. Nothing used to really happen in the country back then.
Many of those Steelbands got big by coming into town. I know some of the bands from Point, which is country band, come into town and got big. Fellas stayed and built up Desperadoes Steelband. Phase II and all those other bands got fellas from South and so on to build up the band. Some of those fellas are still living in town. They never went back to the country. I have friends who came from Mayaro and went back with town sense. They started opening their own little business and so on. Some of them even have their own little boating business. The fellas still come and play in Desperadoes and the other bands.
A fella I know comes from St. Martin to play in Desperadoes. A little White girl from Illinois came by me the other day to buy one of my books. She went back home but she will be coming back in January for the Pan season. She comes down to Trinidad to learn how to play iron and so on and teaches percussion where she lives. A lot of people come down to play but only in certain bands. They would play like in Ray Holman's band and in 'Boogsie's' band.
TYEHIMBA: How did you get the name 'Joker'?
WINSFORD: That is my Calypso sobriquet. Even my children call me 'Joker'.
MR. DOUGLAS: Everybody refers to you by that name?
WINSFORD: I gave myself that name. If I was going to sing Calypso that is the name I would have been singing under. 'Joker' is the name I use on the internet.
TYEHIMBA: Do you have any regrets about not singing more of your compositions?
WINSFORD: Yeah boy. I would have been able to sing what I want. Right now, I hardly write political commentaries. My reason is that I cannot sing the truth. If I used to sing, PNM would be in problems these days. Between you and me, I cannot be against those fellas. There is no benefit to sing against the PNM. I cannot give 'Cro Cro' and those fellas what they are singing now because they are singing about Panday and it has benefits there. 'Cro Cro' probably got rich singing about Panday. I see 'Chalkie' and all is trying to kind of temper the thing. He doesn't want to sing against Panday because he was once an alliance for Panday. He was put in a big post by Panday where he was a director of some institute Panday and they had set up. When 'Chalkie' is singing he breaks, and 'Luta' too. They sit down on the edge although I heard 'Luta' in this last competition singing against Panday.
You cannot sing against PNM. They are too popular to go in a competition. PNM is a total party. They are smart and they know how to run a party. They have activist in every nook and cranny. Would you believe, some of the main adjudicators in the Calypso and Steelband are PNM people? You cannot go in any competition and say Patrick Manning do this or he do that. Dr. Eric Williams never used to do that so you could have sung against him. His political integrity was such that he would have accepted the artistes singing against him and laugh through each one of the fellas. He once said, "Let the jackass bray." But somehow or the other, Manning is not taking that. He wouldn't be vindictive towards you but you will realize that you will never rise in the competition. You would just remain at a standstill. Nothing is wrong with that. Survival is the name of the game. The message is that if I am a politician, you cannot sing against me. If you sing against me, I am not saying I would put you in jail or whatever but you cannot rise in a competition; you are last.
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